UNLV rally as persuasive as a temper tantrum
Since when did crowds of people milling about, shouting profanities and waving crudely painted signs get elevated to the level of persuasive argumentation?
To me the scene at UNLV Thursday night had all the eloquence and persuasive power of an organized temper tantrum. They should’ve been sent to their rooms without supper.
But no, the children seemed to be proud of themselves.
"This is great!" UNLV student body Vice President Vik Sehdev was quoted as saying. "Last time this happened was, like, in the '60s."
Yes, and before that we had those highly regarded expressions of community umbrage known as lynch mobs.
The rally was a reaction to the governor’s proposed higher education budget cuts. Instead of serious debate and reasoned rhetoric from the halls of higher education, we got outrage.
As reporter Richard Lake wrote:
“Students are outraged.
“Administrators are outraged.
“Professors, staff and activists are outraged.”
And university system Chancellor Jim Rogers and UNLV President David Ashley were their cheerleaders, whipping up anger and avarice for other people’s money instead of enlightened discourse.
There were chants of “Rogers, Rogers, Rogers.” Did he score a touchdown?
There were chants of “No more cuts, no more cuts …” ad nauseam.
One student said she was there as a “show of force.” Just what we need, campus where a show of force trumps everything.
How about some speeches that are more than petulant whining? How about written essays that offer solutions instead of form letters to which the students can affix their “Xs”? How about rational letters to the legislators and/or the newspapers? How about letters to campus newspaper? Or even comments posted on the online Rebel Yell story about the rally? First time I looked, there were none. At noon there were two and both were related to this blog posting.
They were proud of themselves. For what?
Several signs said, “We are your future.”
Now there’s something to raise the hairs on the back of your neck.
- Students at UNLV protest proposed budget cuts
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to "UNLV rally as persuasive as a temper tantrum"
Tom:
Aren't you outraged about the cuts to higher education? I'm not an UNLV student, nor was I at the rally but of all the cuts the governor has proposed the cuts to higher education seem down-right irresponsible. Everyone in the economic development sector has screamed for years that desirable businesses will not relocate or locate to the state until we have a much improved higher education system. How do we do that by cutting it 50%?! I know you're a borderline anarchist and if you had your way there would be no state government but some services are essential to the greater good of society the most important of which is education. Debate is good on issues of reason, cutting higher education by 50% is insane. I personally would rather have a personal income tax (which I hate!!!) rather than have our higher education system fall into disrepair, that is exactly what will happen if our esteemed governor gets his way.
Aren't you outraged about the cuts to higher education? I'm not an UNLV student, nor was I at the rally but of all the cuts the governor has proposed the cuts to higher education seem down-right irresponsible. Everyone in the economic development sector has screamed for years that desirable businesses will not relocate or locate to the state until we have a much improved higher education system. How do we do that by cutting it 50%?! I know you're a borderline anarchist and if you had your way there would be no state government but some services are essential to the greater good of society the most important of which is education. Debate is good on issues of reason, cutting higher education by 50% is insane. I personally would rather have a personal income tax (which I hate!!!) rather than have our higher education system fall into disrepair, that is exactly what will happen if our esteemed governor gets his way.
Oh, seems like the RJ is afarid of competion. Constant whining, check. Generalized grievances, check. lack of persuasivness, check. The eally and the RJ's ed board are one in the same!
Thomas Mitchell:
Don't you understand? It is owed to them. If you don't believe it, just ask them.
Don't you understand? It is owed to them. If you don't believe it, just ask them.
Well - it would seem to me all that shouting and waving "crudely painted signs," got someone's attention, didn't it? Mainly yours, as you wrote an editorial in your newspaper, forwhaever purpose- highlighted the very issue at hand - education cuts.
I think it takes all kinds of responses to get something done. And a huge showing at a rally like that is just one piece of the puzzle. Good for everyone who attended and made their feelings known even by only being another loud body there.
And we have had plenty of reasonable speeches--including ones on the joint state of education scheduled for tonight. I'll be watching.
And we have had plenty of reasonable speeches--including ones on the joint state of education scheduled for tonight. I'll be watching.
I'm ashamed to share a name with you. Your blanket stereotypes are sickening. Writers like yourself give the RJ the reputation of being written for a 5th grade reading level. If these cuts happen, 5th graders won't be able to read. It's sad and misleading to refer to UNLV students as "children" when the median graduation age is approx 27. We're young adults juggling mortgages, car notes, insurance payments and lay-offs. The same challenges you "old" people are facing.
Those kids need to grow up and find ways that will make people take them more seriously. For instance, people take you more seriously because of your magnificent hat.
Shouldn't the fact that they are out there trying to change things that thry believe in be a positive thing? Maybe they aren't as organized and focused as rally's you have seen in your lifetime but did you think that this could be new to this generation?
My intention was to start a dialog. It worked.
"My intention was to start a dialog. It worked."
This excuse is as amateur as the crude signs from the rally. The reason I made these asinine and foolish assertions was to get people talking. As if this dialogue will some how solve the problem. This dialogue is as helpful as your boorish excuse. Nice cop out cowboy.
This excuse is as amateur as the crude signs from the rally. The reason I made these asinine and foolish assertions was to get people talking. As if this dialogue will some how solve the problem. This dialogue is as helpful as your boorish excuse. Nice cop out cowboy.
Thank you, Mr. Mitchell. This is the exact reason that I did not attend.
No Mr. Mitchell, it appears your intention was to deride and condescend. Your insinuation at a lack of intelligent and productive arguments and dialogue, as well as your sardonic suggestions, are frankly insulting. Have you checked the Rebel Yell recently? There are several intelligently written pieces on this issue. Have you personally talked to the students or administration? If you did you would hear the genuine concern and the reasoning behind the outrage. You might have also hear that heartfelt and reasoned letters are indeed being sent to legislators. The rally was an exercise in democracy, in putting up a united stand against such preposterous budget cut proposals that would not only hurt UNLV, but would cripple the entire K-12 education system in Nevada as well. There is power in such numbers and visible outrage, and it should not be written off so easily or cynically - in fact, it is a form of persuasion in itself. In the meantime I have a suggestion for you: Instead of writing pieces that are as persuasive or productive as a temper tantrum, aim for something a tad more constructive and substantial.
As anyone who has played Sim City knows, you can't have a city with high tech industry, high wealth commercial, and high wealth residential without a thriving education system. Perhaps you should play more video games.
I prefer cool reason to hot tempers, chanted slogans, guerrilla theater and broken glass.
Gibbons' blind stupidity was met with blind rage. A response that is apropos, I'd say.
Your response, Mr. Mitchell, has all the charm of a Depends-clad, Sun City-dwelling anachronism screaming "Get Off My Lawn!"
Your response, Mr. Mitchell, has all the charm of a Depends-clad, Sun City-dwelling anachronism screaming "Get Off My Lawn!"
Temper tantrum or not it grabbed people's attention. Many of these students are paying their own way through college (oftentimes having to take on huge student loan debt) and now they're being priced out of it altogether. With the proposed cuts students will end up paying more, will have a difficult time getting classes they need to graduate, and the good professors will start looking at going to other institutions. I commend these students on doing SOMETHING, although I agree it could have been done in a more intelligent manner, I doubt it would have garnered as much attention. Higher education should be accessible to all, not only those higher up on the economic ladder. A society lacking an education is more expensive to all of us in the long run.
Yes, student protests always seem a little childish to older people. That's because they're young and less experienced. In Vegas especially, where people have lived like docile obedient cows for decades, it's going to take a while for young people to find their voice and the right tone. But Gibbons and the radical rightwing destruction of democracy and government of the last 8 years has finally got the kids' attention. And Jim Rogers, who I used to think was a kook, came off as sensible, intelligent, sincere, and most of all, right. Yesterday should be the end of Gibbons and the start of the rescue of Nevada.
"My intention was to start a dialog (sic). It worked."
Presumably you will now graduate, pardon the pun, to yelling "Fire!" in crowded theaters to "start some physical exercise." UNLV might have some remedial spelling classes you could take, too.
Presumably you will now graduate, pardon the pun, to yelling "Fire!" in crowded theaters to "start some physical exercise." UNLV might have some remedial spelling classes you could take, too.
A rally is not the site of "persuasive argumentation," especially when the audience needing persuasion is not present. It is precisely a place to "rally" and show support for a cause. If people are angered to the point of loosing civility, perhaps it is worth acknowledging that there is a problem. (I’d like to throw in an ad hominem attack directed at you, but that would be uncivil…)
I would expect the students to protest, and maybe they should. But the fly in ointment is Jim Rogers who is the Benjamin Linus (Lost) of Nevada. And, like Sayid said to Hugo on the show the other night, "Whatever Ben tells you ─ do the opposite."
Fafner:
Back in the olden days, when AP had to pay for every character sent across the telegraph wire, the AP Stylebook dictated that the spelling would be dialog. The style also was employe and whisky. But they've since changed to the more profligate spellings, adding the e's and the ue. Don't that just snap your galluses?
Back in the olden days, when AP had to pay for every character sent across the telegraph wire, the AP Stylebook dictated that the spelling would be dialog. The style also was employe and whisky. But they've since changed to the more profligate spellings, adding the e's and the ue. Don't that just snap your galluses?
Sir,
Before you call us whiners, look at yourself and that hideous hat. Instead of providing solutions to the budget crisis, you attack the students and faculty at the rally. You didn't mention anything about Jim Gibbon's incompetence and his lack of leadership. His proposed cut will have devastating consequences for Nevada's future. Yet, you denounce us because we are worried about our future.
You might not agree with our methods, but at least we organized and got our voices heard. We let it be known that we will not stand for this. Perhaps you don't understand what it's like to work two jobs, one internship, and go to school full time. You should try it, you'd probably understand and be at the rally with us!
Before you call us whiners, look at yourself and that hideous hat. Instead of providing solutions to the budget crisis, you attack the students and faculty at the rally. You didn't mention anything about Jim Gibbon's incompetence and his lack of leadership. His proposed cut will have devastating consequences for Nevada's future. Yet, you denounce us because we are worried about our future.
You might not agree with our methods, but at least we organized and got our voices heard. We let it be known that we will not stand for this. Perhaps you don't understand what it's like to work two jobs, one internship, and go to school full time. You should try it, you'd probably understand and be at the rally with us!
Several things at work here. One, folks like Mr. Mitchell think higher education is a waste. Send them to the real world and such. The reality is that if you cut funding for Nevada Universities, higher education will only be attainable by on the most well off. Second, rallies like this are supposed to be full of hyperbole, yelling and sometimes are not pretty to behold (see also: the RJ editorial page). These students would like to be able to continue to attend college, get a job and just maybe make Nevada a better place to live. A dream? Certainly. But the alternatives are far worse.
Tom:
Nothing these students could have said/done/yelled/written/painted could possibly be as annoying, distracting, pointless, or offensive to humanity as whatever that thing is growing on your face.
Nothing these students could have said/done/yelled/written/painted could possibly be as annoying, distracting, pointless, or offensive to humanity as whatever that thing is growing on your face.
Do you still take your horse and buggy to work every morning as well Tommy?
Well Thomas, you certainly have the WIIFM's (What's in it for me!) running amok. Where were they when their brother was spending $1,400 of our money on a lizard-skin trash can? Where do they get the erroneous belief that only UNLV students are suffering hard times. My word to them is don't scream and holler about it being done just shut up and help undo it.
For Steve,
Perhaps one of the fall-outs of this situation is that UNLV cannot afford a dictionary. If so I will be happy to loan them my Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, A Merriam-Webster, G. & C. Merriam Company, Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A., 1977. Said dictionary, as you will find, indicates the word under discussion may be spelled with equal standing as "dialog" or "dialogue." Are you man and old enough to apologize or are you one of the WIIFMs who just had his face wiped of the juvenile smirk?
For Steve,
Perhaps one of the fall-outs of this situation is that UNLV cannot afford a dictionary. If so I will be happy to loan them my Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, A Merriam-Webster, G. & C. Merriam Company, Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A., 1977. Said dictionary, as you will find, indicates the word under discussion may be spelled with equal standing as "dialog" or "dialogue." Are you man and old enough to apologize or are you one of the WIIFMs who just had his face wiped of the juvenile smirk?
My apologies to Steve. The "dialog" portion of my last comment should have been directed to "Fafner."
I thought somebody who looked so much like Hey Reb! would be more supportive of UNLV.
The evening guy over at KXNT just sent me a query about a story the R-J published this past summer. He probably is going to talk about it tonight.
In June Alan Maimon reported that the average full prof at UNLV fetches the princely pay of $114,500 and teaches few classes.
There's a lot of info here:
http://www.lvrj.com/news/19817204.html
In June Alan Maimon reported that the average full prof at UNLV fetches the princely pay of $114,500 and teaches few classes.
There's a lot of info here:
http://www.lvrj.com/news/19817204.html
Here's a snippete of aforementioned story:
The university's stated expectation -- though it falls short of a requirement -- is that full-time, non-research faculty members will teach three classes a semester. On average, each of those faculty taught between three and four courses at the bachelor's, master's or doctoral level in the fall 2007 semester, a Review-Journal analysis shows. But of the university's 828 professors who taught at all, more than 30 percent handled fewer than three courses.
UNLV has roughly 960 full-time faculty, which means about 130 professors didn't teach at all in the fall semester. Some of those professors were doing research, were on leave or were given administrative roles for the semester.
A full professor at UNLV makes an average of $114,500 a year, about $5,000 more than the average for full professors at public doctoral institutions nationwide, according to the American Association of University Professors.
The university's stated expectation -- though it falls short of a requirement -- is that full-time, non-research faculty members will teach three classes a semester. On average, each of those faculty taught between three and four courses at the bachelor's, master's or doctoral level in the fall 2007 semester, a Review-Journal analysis shows. But of the university's 828 professors who taught at all, more than 30 percent handled fewer than three courses.
UNLV has roughly 960 full-time faculty, which means about 130 professors didn't teach at all in the fall semester. Some of those professors were doing research, were on leave or were given administrative roles for the semester.
A full professor at UNLV makes an average of $114,500 a year, about $5,000 more than the average for full professors at public doctoral institutions nationwide, according to the American Association of University Professors.
@ Steve,Wilford Brinley and YE!
WIN!!!
Apparently, Mitchell misses the telegraph AND the Pony Express...now if he could only get his hands on that old-timey handlebar mustache wax.
WIN!!!
Apparently, Mitchell misses the telegraph AND the Pony Express...now if he could only get his hands on that old-timey handlebar mustache wax.
’Stache wax is hard to find, dude, so you have to stock up when you do. When I run out I give cousin Waddie a call.
http://www.cowboyethics.org/WaddieMitchell.html
http://www.cowboyethics.org/WaddieMitchell.html
Gee Thomas...that darned old first amendment sure is a pesky thing in the hands of masses, isn't it? Guess we can whack that one off the list of the RJ's amendments to support. I mean all that freedom to assemble and petition the government could lead to CHANGE!!!
Oh the humanity...
Oh the humanity...
Couple things
1. the same students complaining that there tuition is too high now will be complaining about their taxes are too high later on and that their teachers pay is not enough.
2. The outcry should be over how to lower the cost of education period. Even lower than what it is now. How much is a semester anyway.
3. I don't see any outrage over Roger's expensive lawn furniture he put in office either.
1. the same students complaining that there tuition is too high now will be complaining about their taxes are too high later on and that their teachers pay is not enough.
2. The outcry should be over how to lower the cost of education period. Even lower than what it is now. How much is a semester anyway.
3. I don't see any outrage over Roger's expensive lawn furniture he put in office either.
You're a smart person, Mr. Mitchell, so why not educate yourself on the duties of a faculty member at a *research* university. How about pick up a copy of Donald Kennedy's _Academic Duty_. You'll learn that teaching is one important part of a research faculty member's job, but good faculty also conduct research to stay current and cutting edge, so in turn students get the best education. This is what happens at the UCLAs and Harvards. And that's what you want UNLV and Reno to become, right? Or you rather support sending Nevada kids (and money) out of state?
P.S. you know why UNLV faculty might make marginally more than the faculty at Harvard or UCLA? That's because to attract the quality faculty who would RATHER work at a top tier university, you have to pay them more...do you capitalists follow that market logic?
We are not kids. We are adults who work and go to school. If I had rich parents I would not be going to UNLV. We are not given a choice, unfortunately, about how to approach these budget cuts. We can write essays in thirty different languages, but nobody who matters will read them, especially people who don't want to hear it. It's not a temper tantrum, nor was it approached as one, it was simply a physical representation of the anxiety welling up in us. As if work and school wasn't enough stress. Thanks for the article, though. Constructive criticism has ever been help for us, and it's doing such a great benefit to your community. You have certainly won a lot of people over with your mature knowledge of how things ought to be. Your article certainly taught us to behave ourselves. Congratulations.
CybScryb,
You missed the point. I did not say you should not have the right to assemble and speak. I simply said it was not effective.
You missed the point. I did not say you should not have the right to assemble and speak. I simply said it was not effective.
Effectiveness is the now standard for the desirability and/or worth of free speech? Dang. I'm going to miss RJ editorials.
Mr. Mitchell,
The insulting nature of your editorial sickens me. Comparing a group of two or three thousand concerned and peaceful students to a "lynch mob" is utterly disgusting and worthy of an apology on your part. If you are so concerned about maintaining the level of "persuasive argumentation" in the debate, then I suggest that you refrain from launching ad hominem attacks.
I understand where your opposition to these types of rallies comes from. You want to preserve the minuscule state tax rate that the RJ pays for the pleasure of doing business here. Right now, the RJ pays NO business taxes to the State of Nevada. Stephens Media takes almost ALL of its earnings from the RJ and brings them back to Arkansas, where Stephens Media is headquartered. You are looking out for the best interests of your paper by writing your insulting editorial. UNLV, CSN, NSC, and UNR students are looking out for their best interests by rallying to fight the budget cuts.
The insulting nature of your editorial sickens me. Comparing a group of two or three thousand concerned and peaceful students to a "lynch mob" is utterly disgusting and worthy of an apology on your part. If you are so concerned about maintaining the level of "persuasive argumentation" in the debate, then I suggest that you refrain from launching ad hominem attacks.
I understand where your opposition to these types of rallies comes from. You want to preserve the minuscule state tax rate that the RJ pays for the pleasure of doing business here. Right now, the RJ pays NO business taxes to the State of Nevada. Stephens Media takes almost ALL of its earnings from the RJ and brings them back to Arkansas, where Stephens Media is headquartered. You are looking out for the best interests of your paper by writing your insulting editorial. UNLV, CSN, NSC, and UNR students are looking out for their best interests by rallying to fight the budget cuts.
MAV:
That is an oft-repeated bald-faced lie that I have dismissed on more than one occasion.
http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/12544516.html
I am sickened by sophomoric displays demanding other people's money for their own supposed betterment. And don't get me started on the kind of politics and political correctness you find on the majority of college campuses.
That is an oft-repeated bald-faced lie that I have dismissed on more than one occasion.
http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/12544516.html
I am sickened by sophomoric displays demanding other people's money for their own supposed betterment. And don't get me started on the kind of politics and political correctness you find on the majority of college campuses.
Mr. Mitchell,
Any student that attends a class in Critical Thinking and Logic knows that you don't use an editorial to back up an assertion. Your argument is invalid.
Of course, you, sir, are in favor of budget cuts that would threaten those very courses at our University system. Perhaps you are looking out for your own interests in that respect also; the less educated the populous, the more popular your sophomoric and insulting editorials become.
As an aside, you should be thankful for the University System in Nevada. If the University system were not to exist, or if it were to be cut by 36% or more, as the Governor has proposed, I have no doubt that many college educated people would leave Southern Nevada. College educated people buy newspapers; they're pretty much the only ones that do now a days. Perhaps you should consider that before you insult them in your editorials.
Any student that attends a class in Critical Thinking and Logic knows that you don't use an editorial to back up an assertion. Your argument is invalid.
Of course, you, sir, are in favor of budget cuts that would threaten those very courses at our University system. Perhaps you are looking out for your own interests in that respect also; the less educated the populous, the more popular your sophomoric and insulting editorials become.
As an aside, you should be thankful for the University System in Nevada. If the University system were not to exist, or if it were to be cut by 36% or more, as the Governor has proposed, I have no doubt that many college educated people would leave Southern Nevada. College educated people buy newspapers; they're pretty much the only ones that do now a days. Perhaps you should consider that before you insult them in your editorials.
The shortsighted selfishness of the psuedo-intellectual WIIFMs (see above comment) holding forth herein is typical of the "Me" Generation of today. How many of these demonstrators attended the rallies for the governor and rioted to prevent his election? How many rallied and rioted to prevent the election of Bush and the rest of his corrupt Republican cronies? How many rallied and rioted to restore the Constitution of our Country systematically destroyed over the last eight years.? How many rallied and rioted in front of the Banks to prevent their usurious loan practices? How many rallied and rioted at the Corporate Meetings to prevent the thievery of the CEO's outlandish bonuses? How many rallied and rioted at the gasoline stations to prevent the price gouging by oil companies that resulted in record illegal windfall profits?
I have just one comment for those of you would be intellectuals with a big education but little intelligence and no common sense: Put your money where your mouth is, not your mouth where my money is.
I have just one comment for those of you would be intellectuals with a big education but little intelligence and no common sense: Put your money where your mouth is, not your mouth where my money is.
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