On abortion, it's not 'conservative' and 'liberal' Catholics, it's 'good' and 'bad' Catholics
It is difficult to watch the liberal and far left cable news channels (CNN & MSNBC) try to grasp the "Catholic" angle on the GOP primary as it proceeds to New Hampshire.
What will "conservative" Catholics do in a tight race between the candidates in the field, they asked. Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum are both Catholics and Mitt Romney is Mormon. All three do not condone abortion. Which way will "conservative" Catholics break? And if there are "conservative" Catholics, what then of the "liberal" Catholics?
Here's the rub with that kind of cookie-cutter analysis. When it comes to abortion there is no such thing as a "conservative" or "liberal" Catholic or Mormon. There are only "good" or "bad" Catholics or Mormons.
Sanctity of life is non-negotiable in both expressions of the Christian faith.
As Pope Benedict XVI said last year: "The moral conscience is universal, not something that comes from external pressure or emotions, nor something unique to Christians and believers. Through moral conscience God speaks to each of us, inviting us to defend human life at all times, and in this personal bond with the Creator lies the profound dignity of moral conscience and the reason for its inviolability."
He added: “It is necessary that society as a whole must defend the conceived child’s right to life and the true good of the woman who can never, in any circumstances, find fulfillment in the decision to abort.”
The LDS Church is on a similar page. In fact, this is the apropos page from the church's website: "Human life is a sacred gift from God. Elective abortion for personal or social convenience is contrary to the will and the commandments of God. Church members who submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions may lose their membership in the Church." (Paging Sen. Harry Reid, you have some explaining to do.)
Look, I feel no need to get any further into specifics about public officials and their conscience or lack thereof. My point is to the media. You just don't get the nuance abortion plays for American Catholics and Mormons. The voting booth is sacred, of course. People can pull whatever lever they wish. But on abortion there is zero room to rationalize. If you facilitate abortion you in the eyes of the church are considered a "bad" Catholic or a "bad" Mormon, no matter whether you call yourself politically conservative or liberal.
Analyze the lay of that land before you start flipping around questions about how New Hampshire Catholics will vote. It ain't that simple.
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OFF TOPIC ALERT- We've said adios to several dictators this past year: Kim Jong Il, Moammar, Mubarek, et.al. We now have a new dictator-Barack Hussein Obama. He flouts the separation of powers clause and steams full speed ahead with his agenda of what's best for the sheeple. Some people are just too important to be shackled by silly laws.
Did anyone here notice Sherman did not specifically name who "they" are, these "liberal and far left cable news channels" on MSNBC and CNN?
Look, I'm not going to disagree that somebody on CNN or MSNBC raised a question about 'what Catholics might do,' but what Sherman is attempting to do here is the usual conservative habit of trying to divide people based on their religious beliefs.
It is just a pathetic thing to behold, mainly because it works. It has worked for about 32 years now, ever since the moral majority and Red Ink Reagan.
So if you want to complain about the media Sherman, complain about that.
Look, I'm not going to disagree that somebody on CNN or MSNBC raised a question about 'what Catholics might do,' but what Sherman is attempting to do here is the usual conservative habit of trying to divide people based on their religious beliefs.
It is just a pathetic thing to behold, mainly because it works. It has worked for about 32 years now, ever since the moral majority and Red Ink Reagan.
So if you want to complain about the media Sherman, complain about that.
When will the mythological christian god stop performing abortions and pushing for the slaughter of children who disobey their parents?
And just so I have this straight Sherman, a pro-choice Catholic is a "bad Catholic," but a pro-war, or a Republican Catholic who is against rich countries like the United States GIVING their money to poor countries, these are the 'good Catholics?'
It just a damn good thing we have people like you in the world to sort all of this out for us simpletons.
It just a damn good thing we have people like you in the world to sort all of this out for us simpletons.
I think I just read that at least 3 of the Republicans currently running for president are against abortion in all cases, including rape, incest or the life of the mother.
Think about that for a minute women in Las Vegas, how many of you and us would like to live in that kind of a country? How about you Sherman Frederick, if your daughter God forbid was raped and impregnated, would you want to live in a country that forced your daughter to carry that pregnancy to term?
Think about that for a minute women in Las Vegas, how many of you and us would like to live in that kind of a country? How about you Sherman Frederick, if your daughter God forbid was raped and impregnated, would you want to live in a country that forced your daughter to carry that pregnancy to term?
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Typical Republican response. Look, abortion is legal. Testing a politician for his religious beliefs is against The Constitution. The real question is, are you going to vote for a Republican 'dictator' for president that states his will fight against a legal procedure.
If we support church prohibitions of abortion under any circumstances, while at the same time calling for the dismantling of all social support structures like welfare, and making people fend for themselves, aren't we in effect saying that life is invaluable UP UNTIL BIRTH, and we don't care what happens to it after that? That life is infinitely precious as long as it is cute and cuddly? Plus, how is it that a radical libertarian-type conservative extremist like Sherm, who is violently opposed to governments telling individuals what to think or do, can at the same time say that individuals have no choice, and no freedom, but to think and do what churches tell them to? How are those not inconsistent?
I love it when Jerry.Sturdivant calls abortion a "legal procedure".
Santorum also wants to outlaw all contraceptives including condoms. That's just crazy.
It's a good thing the leading GOP candidates are holding firm to their anti-abortion positions. Once a nominee is chosen, he should campaign on this platform of using Big Government to tell women what they can and cannot do with their bodies.
Then the American people will see which party really favors unleashing Big Gov into our private lives. By criminalizing abortions the GOP would be creating hundreds of thousands of criminals out of innocent women who want the right to have control of their own bodies.
So I say go for it, GOP. Spread your Big Government-in-control anti-abortion message loud and clear all across the land.
It's a good thing the leading GOP candidates are holding firm to their anti-abortion positions. Once a nominee is chosen, he should campaign on this platform of using Big Government to tell women what they can and cannot do with their bodies.
Then the American people will see which party really favors unleashing Big Gov into our private lives. By criminalizing abortions the GOP would be creating hundreds of thousands of criminals out of innocent women who want the right to have control of their own bodies.
So I say go for it, GOP. Spread your Big Government-in-control anti-abortion message loud and clear all across the land.
How many have left the catholic church, in the last 20years? It's so bad they are running ads onTV asking people to return. Oh and in the churches eyes...Who is Newt married to?
What a person does with his or her body is nobody's business but theirs. Abortion and condoms are none of the government's business and should not be a part of any political campaign.
STOP... LOOK... LISTEN to this guy. He's now holier than thou.
Unintended consequences. Even with almost 40 years to study the effects of Roe vs Wade, all too many wish to bury their heads in the sand and refuse to look at the carnage this Supreme Court ruling has wrought.
50 million dead. And all would be under the age of 40. Demographics, people, demographics. In this, we have a front row seat to aging countries with low birth rates in Europe and Japan.
We outlawed the continuing funding source for our Ponzi scheme (SS, pensions, and Medicare). Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. What looked good, at the time, is coming back to bite us in @ss.
But if we don't consider that, maybe it won't happen, eh?
50 million dead. And all would be under the age of 40. Demographics, people, demographics. In this, we have a front row seat to aging countries with low birth rates in Europe and Japan.
We outlawed the continuing funding source for our Ponzi scheme (SS, pensions, and Medicare). Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. What looked good, at the time, is coming back to bite us in @ss.
But if we don't consider that, maybe it won't happen, eh?
Lester.Gillis wrote: "What a person does with his or her body is nobody's business but theirs." So, what say ye about partial birth abortions. Your reasoning won't stand up to science.
The bozone layer is strong around Sherm as he defends biblical slaughter of children. Find something moral to follow Shermy.
Gee, Mark, do you mean something like the National Defense Appropriations Act, with Amendment 1031?
The Big Government nanny state being sought by anti-abortion rightwingers would put women into prison for having an illegal abortion, creating a whole new class of criminals while tearing families apart.
Welcome to REAL world of so-called "small government" conservatives. It'll be like having our very own morality-dictating Taliban. That sure sounds like fun, huh?
Welcome to REAL world of so-called "small government" conservatives. It'll be like having our very own morality-dictating Taliban. That sure sounds like fun, huh?
The issue of abortion should be left to churches and the deluded weak minded types that belong to them. Government has no place in banning abortions or restricting birth control.
Any real libertarian knows this. Fake libertarians like Ron Paul and Cowboy Hat guy (btw how is that new paper selling amongst the goats, cattle and rattlesnakes?) hide behind the philosophy then co-opt it to their own bible thumping religious right ideals.
Religion is the crutch of the weak minded who fear mortality.
Any real libertarian knows this. Fake libertarians like Ron Paul and Cowboy Hat guy (btw how is that new paper selling amongst the goats, cattle and rattlesnakes?) hide behind the philosophy then co-opt it to their own bible thumping religious right ideals.
Religion is the crutch of the weak minded who fear mortality.
Maybe Sherm would like all of us to be insane like Santorum, the strict Catholic. Santorum, with his wife brought home their stillborn child from the hospital, introduced it to his children, then ages 6,4 and 1 1/2 and had the whole family caress, kiss and care for the stillborn child for a number of hours. Santorum should have been either committed or prosecuted after this affair. His judgment is so skewed he is obviously unfit for elected office, and he and his family should be in therapy.
Santorum is a flat out nutjob.
Sure, Athos. And our unemployment rate would now be 50 million higher, because American companies would still be either shipping American jobs overseas or bringing undocumented immigrants here, all in search of the cheapest possible labor. I ask the same question again: how is it that the sanctity of life stops when that life is born?
The real tragedy, is that abortion has become an acceptable means to an end. It's not so much a political or religious issue, as it is a humanistic issue. It's amazing to me that of all the species that inhabit this planet, man is the only one that euthanizes its own.
Rick Santorum holds a special place in politics.
Running for reelection as a two-term incumbent US Senator from Pennsylvania Santorum was trounced by Democrat Bob Casey ...losing by a margin of 17%.
Don't know what the all-time record is for a losing incumbent senator (not including any who were under indictment at the time) but a 17% margin has be near the very top of the list.
Running for reelection as a two-term incumbent US Senator from Pennsylvania Santorum was trounced by Democrat Bob Casey ...losing by a margin of 17%.
Don't know what the all-time record is for a losing incumbent senator (not including any who were under indictment at the time) but a 17% margin has be near the very top of the list.
Look up the term "carrying capacity" sometime, if you're not already familiar with it. It refers to the size of population that any given ecosystem and economy can support. What I don't understand is, if our conservative brethren are smart enough to understand that an "ecosystem" like a pension system can only afford to support so many pensioners, and they are right about that, how is it that they do not see that unlimited, unrestricted general population growth is simply unsustainable? SOME form of population control is inarguably necessary.
I wonder, if like in the "good old days" Catholics still accept tithes to "erase" sins?
Also, did the Morman church change its tune about the "sinfulness" of coca cola once they bought a bunch of shares?
Maybe these two churches are just looking for some lobbying money rather than really making statements about "morality" of abortion.
Also, did the Morman church change its tune about the "sinfulness" of coca cola once they bought a bunch of shares?
Maybe these two churches are just looking for some lobbying money rather than really making statements about "morality" of abortion.
democratic brand + Barry = EPIC FAIL
WE NEED TO ABORT THIS PRESIDENT;)
LIBS, IT'S NOT YOUR BODY, IT'S GODS'S CREATION.
I love it when Jerry.Sturdivant calls abortion a "legal procedure".
Actually, you don’t; and that's what I love, Sherman; pointing out Republican hypocrisy.
Actually, you don’t; and that's what I love, Sherman; pointing out Republican hypocrisy.
Sherm--I think it is great that you adhere to whatever your religious teachings have ingrained into you, HOWEVER, those are not the moral basis to my religious beliefs. Should I then bow down to your religious beliefs? It sounds too much like what the Muslims you preach about would do.
As a Republican, you like many of your commrades in arms should understand that government should not intrude between a woman and her physician in making such personal decisions. And..if Rick S becomes President, will he push to outlaw all forms of contraception????? Sherm--take your "small government" hands of of my right to choose. It is none of your business nor is it the business of the government.
As a Republican, you like many of your commrades in arms should understand that government should not intrude between a woman and her physician in making such personal decisions. And..if Rick S becomes President, will he push to outlaw all forms of contraception????? Sherm--take your "small government" hands of of my right to choose. It is none of your business nor is it the business of the government.
Wonderful. Stephen.George is at it again. Alright, Stephen, then answer this question: assume you are right, that we do not have the right to interfere with the BEGINNING of life because our bodies are God's creation and do not belong to us. Wouldn't it follow, from that same argument, that we ALSO do not have the right to interfere with the ENDING of life? In other words, if abortion should be considered a sin by your argument, then shouldn't ALL modern medicine also be considered a sin? And please, do not attempt to dismiss my question by accusing me of some sort of atheist, socialist conspiracy. The only person you make look bad by doing that is yourself.
We need them to implement the too drunk to post mechanic apparently now that Steph's back.
Intact dilation and extraction, also known as Partial birth abortion, is a sub-human procedure.
Only the truly evil would support the legality of the usage of such procedures.
Only the truly evil would support the legality of the usage of such procedures.
Tom, you say our employment would be 50 million more (just give Ø another term and HE may get us there!) but how do you know? The truth is, we'll never know, and thank goodness, Paul Ehrlich was a kid the same time I was, or the baby boom generation may never have happened!
(By the way, Ehrlich has been discredited 6 ways to Sunday, so please don't bring up that tired old lie, OK?)
puzzled, are you a member of the pre-Columbian Aztec religion? I'm just trying to recognize what the moral basis to YOUR religious beliefs could possibly be.
Thanks.
(By the way, Ehrlich has been discredited 6 ways to Sunday, so please don't bring up that tired old lie, OK?)
puzzled, are you a member of the pre-Columbian Aztec religion? I'm just trying to recognize what the moral basis to YOUR religious beliefs could possibly be.
Thanks.
Athos, let me put it a different way: we obviously can't find enough jobs for all our present population. How do YOU know we would be able to find jobs for an ADDITIONAL fifty million people? What if we go ahead and bring those fifty million additional people into the world, and it turns out we CAN'T use them? What are they supposed to do then? You are entitled to dislike Paul Erhlich and Al Gore, Athos. I don't even like Al Gore myself. But that dislike doesn't prove that overpopulation and global warming do not exist. Even if they do not exist exactly in the form proposed by Erhlich and Gore.
I disagree with Algore on his premise of MAN-MADE global warming. Also with Ehrlich on his population bomb theories. It is honestly easy to see the truth that human free will makes it nearly impossible to forecast future behavior based on current trends.
And given the amount of money Algore has made (and HOW he's spent it), I see these as problems created to enrich a those that promote them, not for the benefit of mankind.
I'm still quite happy to have been born prior to 1973, aren't you?
And given the amount of money Algore has made (and HOW he's spent it), I see these as problems created to enrich a those that promote them, not for the benefit of mankind.
I'm still quite happy to have been born prior to 1973, aren't you?
Athos, for once I at least partially agree with you. I still think that Al Gore's movie "An Inconvenient Truth" was one of the most outrageous fabrications of political rhetoric and spin I have ever seen. I particularly liked the image of Al Gore looking benevolently down on the planet from on high, through the window of an airplane, as if he were God himself. BUT, however much we both disagree with the details, I simply do not see how it is possible for six and a half BILLION people to live on this planet and not affect the environment AT ALL. In the end, physical reality is not subject to spin, Athos.
Well, Sherman has a couple of people fooled. While the whole world's scientific community is working on what to do about global warming, here's a few wing-nuts still in denial because they're afraid to admit they were fooled by Sherman and the right.
I bet your happy there was no Roe v Wade back in 1938, huh, Jerry?
typo, it's you're happy, not YOUR happy.
All right, I got my second, and last typo out of the way for the rest of the year!
All right, I got my second, and last typo out of the way for the rest of the year!
DON'T KNOW HOW PROTECTING, PRESERVING, OR EXTENDING LIFE IS COMPARABLE TO ABORTION, MAYBE JUST ME...BUT I DON'T SEE A CONNECTION!!
Did you see that, Athos? Jerry.Sturdivant, a left wing radical extremist, doesn't bother to actually READ my posts before reacting to them any more than you do! A perfect example of why I keep saying that an extremist is an extremist is an extremist, regardless of their specific political orientation!
Oh, Tom. You could insult me in any number of ways, but to put me in the same camp as the King of Delusion is cold, man!
Cold!
Cold!
@ Athos: Brrr!!! @ Jerry.Sturdivant: To be as explicit as I can, let me try it this way. Man-made global warming is quite real. I don't think there is any question about that, even if only from the standpoint that it is hard to imagine how six BILLION people could live on this planet and NOT change the climate. But specifically HOW man has changed the climate, and HOW MUCH, and what are the IMPACTS, still are very much in dispute. Al Gore seems to claim to have completely solved all those questions, and I totally disagree. And I also disagree with the arrogant, Old-Testament-Prophet-of-Doom apocalyptic rhetoric that he uses to present his arguments. For a FAR less political, manipulative, demagogic look at global warming, read "The Great Warming", by Brian Fagan.
Al Gore seems to claim to have completely solved all those questions, and I totally disagree.
No, actually, he didn't.
No, actually, he didn't.
In other words, Jerry.Sturdivant, I agree with some of what you say and some of what Athos says. Sherm will probably try to say that that makes me a terrible horrible cowardly immoral "fence sitter", and if so, guilty as charged. He is welcome to his opinion, but I don't see it that way.
In other words, Jerry.Sturdivant, I agree with some of what you say and some of what Athos says.
Sorry, I don't read Athos. He never stayed on subject; was only into name calling; and continually labeled everything "Communist," "Socialist" or "Marxist." Seemed to be the limit of his vocabulary.
Sorry, I don't read Athos. He never stayed on subject; was only into name calling; and continually labeled everything "Communist," "Socialist" or "Marxist." Seemed to be the limit of his vocabulary.
Sorry, Jerry, but if it walks like a duck.......
See what I mean, Tom?
Question, Sherman, when it comes to Catholic priests molesting little boys, and Catholic bishops condoning this behavior, where were the 'good Catholics' as opposed to what the 'bad Catholics' were doing?
And once again, as usual and thank God for this, we have 'right-down-the-middle, everyone-is-wrong-but-him-Tom.Reynolds claiming all of you left and right extremists have it wrong.
Tell me Tom, which part of Al Gore's documentary was not believable?
Tell me Tom, which part of Al Gore's documentary was not believable?
Suppose you first show us specifically where I said that I am right and everyone else is wrong, Yeager! Do ALL extremists "shoot first and ask questions later"? Sheesh! Funny, but I could have sworn I specifically said that I agree that man-made global warming is real. What I disagree with is Gore's assessment of it, and the rhetoric he uses to present his case. For more details, I suggest you watch Bjorn Lomborg's documentary, "Cool It". Some of which I disagree with, but is generally a pretty good evaluation of the issue.
Not again, Sherm. You already had your chance on this issue in 1989-90 with Question 7 and your "Baby Adam" invention in the last week of the campaign. You and the religious fanatics who (without saying it, of course) wanted to promote your version of "limited government" wanted to put a policeman in the home of every woman who might have a fertilized egg in her reproductive system. You actually wanted to try them for murder if they might have used certain kinds of birth control methods or had a miscarriage.
And you were supposed to win 2-1, but even your "Baby Adam" ploy couldn't save you from a near 2-1 loss after the voters had gotten the whole truth about your intentions and the facts. Even your boy Santorum and his wife would be prosecuted by the jackboots you would unleash. Small government, indeed!
And you were supposed to win 2-1, but even your "Baby Adam" ploy couldn't save you from a near 2-1 loss after the voters had gotten the whole truth about your intentions and the facts. Even your boy Santorum and his wife would be prosecuted by the jackboots you would unleash. Small government, indeed!
Tom.Reynolds, carefull recommending Lomborg you will upset MS Chaffer who will "debunk" anything Lomborg sais. Even though all Lomborg actually recommends is humans learn to adapt to climate change, no matter what is causing it, because climate change is out of our control and always has been.
To answer your question, yes they do.
To answer your question, yes they do.
xfmrhsd: Generally, you're right. But what I recall Lomborg saying specifically is that while there is little question that man-made global warming is real, it's impact is highly debatable. And, most significantly, that we are NOT going about dealing with it in the most efficient, cost-effective way possible. Another excellent documentary called "Earth's Changing Climate", which is a Teaching Company 12-part lecture series, points out that modern man-made global warming still has not made the planet anywhere near as hot as it has been in geologic history. Under those circumstances, it's hard to imagine how it could wipe out life on this planet like Al Gore says!
xfmrhsd: PS - while we're on the subject, I also remember Lomborg giving equal "air time" to his critics, who were venomously attacking him even though he was basically agreeing with them that man-made global warming exists and should be addressed. But as far as the original theme of this thread is concerned, the important point about global warming is that there simply IS an upper limit of how much population this planet and this economy can sustain. To say that they can support an unlimited, open-ended number of human beings doesn't make sense. To say that abortion is evil, and therefore by extension ALL forms of birth control are also evil, ignores physical and economic reality. We need SOME form of population control, even if it does not involve abortion.
My concerns on abortion are not religious or founded in religion.
My concerns are for the couple, they should have the right to do as they want with their lives and bodies. Yes even suicide, but only if successful. Attempted suicide is appropriatly illegal and properly voids insurance benefits. This is only to clarify my position.
A SINGLE woman also should not have government knocking on her door about her actions, just as she should not have to consult any of the men she may have been involved with. But this gets muddy if the man does not want the child and the woman does and wants him to pay. In this case DNA is the king and BOTH must be made to pay.
Basically its the effect on society that concerns me as it would also and does effect all of us. But in the case of the couple, government must to stay out of their private lives and their religion too. Of course there are limits, say divorce? Then Government is all in as it needs to keep the effects on society to a minimum.
My concerns are for the couple, they should have the right to do as they want with their lives and bodies. Yes even suicide, but only if successful. Attempted suicide is appropriatly illegal and properly voids insurance benefits. This is only to clarify my position.
A SINGLE woman also should not have government knocking on her door about her actions, just as she should not have to consult any of the men she may have been involved with. But this gets muddy if the man does not want the child and the woman does and wants him to pay. In this case DNA is the king and BOTH must be made to pay.
Basically its the effect on society that concerns me as it would also and does effect all of us. But in the case of the couple, government must to stay out of their private lives and their religion too. Of course there are limits, say divorce? Then Government is all in as it needs to keep the effects on society to a minimum.
As for Lomborg, yes he does listen to his detractors. This is one of the things that upset them the most.
As for Lomborg, yes he does listen to his detractors. This is one of the things that upset them the most.
"Bjorn Lomborg." Really, he is the guy who is going to save all of us when ocean levels rise to levels which cover the whole east and west coasts? How much do ocean levels have to rise to make that happen, does Bjorn say?
Tell you what, go tell us what Bjorn Lomborg's advise will be to we mere mortals when ocean levels do really rise to levels which make much of the US uninhabitable. See, that is the problem, if your hero 'Bjorn' is wrong, most of us are in big trouble.
So the way I see this global warming issue, we have most of the reputable climate scientists saying climate change is real and a real danger to our very existence, and on the other side we have Bjorn Lomborg.
Gee, I wonder whom should the average Joe should believe here?
Tell you what, go tell us what Bjorn Lomborg's advise will be to we mere mortals when ocean levels do really rise to levels which make much of the US uninhabitable. See, that is the problem, if your hero 'Bjorn' is wrong, most of us are in big trouble.
So the way I see this global warming issue, we have most of the reputable climate scientists saying climate change is real and a real danger to our very existence, and on the other side we have Bjorn Lomborg.
Gee, I wonder whom should the average Joe should believe here?
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