"Wierd" is as much a word as Related was smart wrote on August 19, 2008 02:59 PM: Contractor - You keep questioning my experience, yet the only project you mention being a part of was nothing more than a dream - a brochure and a website that never got off of the ground.

It just surprises me that you think you know how to get something built when all you've really done is explain how to fail at developing a high rise. Didn't you learn anything from Icon and Las Rmblas? You aren't in Florida anymore!

Contractor wrote on August 18, 2008 03:05 PM: Wierd - once again, you do not have the experience of developing a building. I bet less than 10% of the buildings in this country get built with finished plans. Krystal Sands sold because they got an unbelievable price for their land. Aqua Blue didn't build because the project never sold, and it was a flawed concept. Gary Ellis is an experienced casino operator and not a developer. An experienced contractor can estimate off of good design drawings and continue to refine the bid as the dd's become construction drawings. The problem is that when a subcontractor gives a condo developer a bid of 2x that would normally cost x because it's a condo and not a casino, the developer is stuck. Related sold their Icon building for more than they thought they would, but the cost was 2x what they had been told to expect from a number of very good, experienced contractors in the market. They were told $210psf hard cost and they used $290 and it came in at over $400psf - just for hard costs. No experienced developer or contractor in the market would ever have predicted that no matter what the finished plans said. It was a matter of construction pricing.

"Wierd" is as much a word as Related was smart wrote on August 18, 2008 02:54 PM: Contractor - Why do you think Icon, Krystal Sands, Aqua Blue, etc. all failed? It was not because they were smart. They failed because they did not work closely enough with the GC to price the building out. They did not have all of their ducks in a row. They jumped the gun in starting their sales before they had any clue that the construction costs in Las Vegas are a lot different than they are in other parts of the country.

In the real world, or at least in Las Vegas, if someone wants to get something built - they understand the market they're in, the timing, and they do not start sales until the bids are in - even if it does take a little bit longer. If they jump the gun, or guess wrong, they fail - just like Related. Why do you think so few condo buildings actually got built? It wasn't due to a lack of sales. Most of the condos were sold out. The "developers" did not understand the market, constructions costs, and did not work closely with the GC to know where to price the units. They slapped a website and brochure together and said they were going to build a condo. They were out of their league thinking they could come into Las Vegas and put a project together.

Related's architects had little, if anything, to do with their failure. It never got that far.

Contractor wrote on August 18, 2008 11:21 AM: Wierd - you obviously haven't ever built a building before. It is always better to have plans finished before bidding a job, but then every job would take 12 months longer to get done. That's not the real world. Related may have had incompetent architects, but they seem to have done everything right except time the boom in construction prices. Even if they started earlier with a cheaper contract, they would be in the position today of Panorama 3 where the buyers from the units they sold aren't closing. Ouch! I feel bad for Hallier. I agree the product isn't as good as what Related would have built, but he made no money on his forst two buildings and may lose the third building due to the market.

"Wierd" is as much a word as Related was smart wrote on August 18, 2008 09:30 AM: Contractor - Your statement "As the plans became more complete..." pretty much says it all. Related did not have all of their ducks in a row prior to selling the project.

I agree 100% in your statement that they were smart not to build for no profit. If they can flip the land a make more money, then why go through all of the work of actually constructing the building? It's all about timing.

All I'm saying is that if they were truly smart, they would have had their bids back prior to doing their pre-sales so that they knew where to price the units, still get it sold, AND make a profit.

Part of the reason Hallier is where he is today because his product just isn't that good.

Contractor wrote on August 18, 2008 08:49 AM: Wierd - You sound very knowledgable, but you're wrong. Related's contractor was MJ Dean, and the lawsuit did not delay Related from starting. I know - I was part of the team. As the plans became more complete the costs kept skyrocketing because the subs were charging huge premiums for condo construction. Related was smart not to build these buildings for no profit. Look at where Hallier is today...

"Wierd" is as much a word as Related was smart wrote on August 17, 2008 10:04 PM: Development Expert - in my post before, I mentioned that delays and construction costs killed the project. Part of the delay was due to the litigation - regardless of whether they won or lost. Their fatal mistake was pre-selling the building before they had a general contractor committed to the project. They did not price it out correctly. They had no clue what they were doing in Las Vegas.

It's not hate...I just thought there were a couple of silly comments praising Related saying how smart they were. And, I appreciated their marketing plan. It was brilliant. After all, the project was almost sold out!

Development Expert wrote on August 17, 2008 05:41 PM: I dont agree with the last comment made referencing Marty Burger and Related. They won the lawsuit against the Doumani's and it was the outrageous rise in construction costs for condo's that stopped the project. So, please stop hating and start appreciating.

"Wierd" is as much a word as Related was smart wrote on August 16, 2008 11:15 PM: Not to bash on Related, or those of you who think they were smart, but I just thought I'd share a good article I found from the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/realestate/29nati.html?pagewanted=all

I especially like the part where it says "Reached on his cellphone, Martin Burger, the president of Related Las Vegas, hung up." Yes, you're the man Marty! Way to stick up for your brilliant decision making.

"Wierd" is as much a word as Related was smart wrote on August 16, 2008 10:52 PM: Related did not make some brilliant decision to cancel their Vegas projects. They had no clue what they were doing in Las Vegas. The decision to cancel Icon was forced upon them because they got into a lawsuit, did not have a general contractor, and did not price the building out correctly. Developers do not cancel projects when they are basically sold out, unless they weren't able to build it for what they sold the condos for. Go back and check the news from early 2006...Google "Related cancels Icon." Delays and construction costs killed their projects...not some brilliant decision made by Marty Burger.

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