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ASKING QUESTIONS: THE NEW ATHEIST

Curiosity grows about nonbelief in a world increasingly divided by religious lines

You've heard about how you're not supposed to talk about religion in polite company?

Then here's something that really has the potential to create fireworks: talking about the opposite of religion in polite company.


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Discourteous or not, the flip side of religious belief -- call it atheism, agnosticism, humanism, rationalism, secularism, freethinking, nontheism or just basic nonbelief -- is everywhere these days, from best-seller lists to TV news shows to workplaces, churches, barrooms and anywhere else humans tend to hash out life's cosmic questions.

Color Mel Lipman surprised. Just two years ago, the Las Vegas attorney and president of the American Humanist Association felt he was swimming against the current in lobbying for Americans to accept other Americans who don't believe in a supreme being.

"Now, I feel that the current has kind of stopped running against me," Lipman said. "I'm still not being pushed by it, but at least I'm treading water, and that's better than what I was doing before."

Which means nontheism remains some distance from mainstream thought. Lipman maintains that religious nonbelievers even now continue to be "the most discriminated against group" in America.

Still, he and others in the nontheist/atheist/humanist movement are encouraged that nonbelief is enjoying a higher, and generally more positive, public profile now than it has had in decades.

"I think there is a new awareness

it is a legitimate form of belief," Lipman said. "Before, there just wasn't that kind of awareness. It's just treating the other (nontheistic) side with respect where, in the past that kind of respect wasn't due the other side."

"My sense is that the mainstream educated American is more open to nonbelief than ever before," agreed James Underdown, executive director of the Center for Inquiry-West, a California-based nonprofit organization whose mission includes promoting reason and providing "rational ethical alternatives" to religious belief systems.

"I think people are more openly interested in these subjects and are at least more inquisitive about it," Underdown said.

"I think, generally, we're having an easier time," said Lori Lipman Brown who, as director of the Secular Coalition for America, lobbies in Washington, D.C., on behalf of atheists, humanists and other nontheists. "People at least are acknowledging we deserve to have a place in society and can live beside us peacefully and with some degree of respect."

It's hard to pin down exactly how many Americans identify themselves as atheists, humanists or nontheists. Lipman has seen figures that nontheists make up anywhere from 11 percent to 15 percent of the U.S. population, which would equate to as many as 45 million Americans who don't believe in God, gods or other sorts of higher powers.

What Lipman does know is that membership in his organization -- one of many that revolves around religious nonbelief -- has increased 250 percent, to about 8,000, during the past four years alone.

That's "remarkable," he added, "because it's been steady for maybe the previous 20 years."

Underdown traces the beginnings of nontheism's current public renaissance to the early '80s and the rise of the Moral Majority when, he said, "an organized group of Christians began to foist their belief system on the rest of Americans."

The Sept. 11, 2001, attacks at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon by Islamic extremists also helped to stoke a nagging suspicion among many Americans that, Underdown said, "religion is contributing to a lot of the death and destruction in the world."

A turn toward nontheism may be linked to some Americans' perception that the Bush administration hews too tightly to a far-right Christian philosophy and is weakening the traditional wall between church and state.

"Every time the country goes to one extreme, there's a tendency to go back to the other side," Lipman said. "And with the Bush administration, we have a very, very right-wing fundamentalist mind-set where, more and more, religion is being pushed into government, which makes nontheists feel more and more uncomfortable, and we feel we've got to defend ourselves against this creeping theocracy."

Also helping to bring atheism into the public eye have been several best-selling books -- including Christopher Hitchens' "God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything"; Sam Harris' "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason"; and Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" -- which lay out the case for nonbelief and landed their authors high-profile appearances on everything from news shows to even, in Hitchens' case, Comedy Central's' "The Daily Show."

"This is the first time in recent history, because of Dawkins and Harris and some of the other writers, that this information (about atheism) is becoming public," Underdown said. "And I think more and more people are saying, 'Wow, maybe (religious belief) isn't resting on a foundation as solid as I once believed.' "

Finally, add to all of this the Internet's ability to connect questioning believers or nonbelievers to both information about nontheistic philosophies and like-minded people and organizations. The result: Atheism's appearance on America's cultural radar to a degree not seen since the late Madalyn Murray O'Hair convinced the U.S. Supreme Court in 1963 to bar state-run prayer from public schools.

Brown -- Mel Lipman's daughter and herself a former Nevada state senator -- noted that from her first days as a lobbyist two years ago, "I was getting phone calls from all over the country, but especially from the Bible Belt area and parts of the South, from people saying, 'I've been so scared to tell anyone that I don't believe in a god, and I'm so glad you're there.' They'd be on the phone almost crying."

Brian Govatos, now 20, realized he was a nontheist at 17. Raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Govatos describes himself as an "antitheist," somebody who "actively opposes organized religion and focuses primarily on the destructive and negative aspects of it, while acknowledging the positive as well."

He called his path to nontheism a "slowly developing enlightenment" that began when he started to see churches -- his own and others -- "as a business entity, and really began to understand the inner workings and the politics."

His family remains in the LDS church, and Govatos said his lack of religious belief is "a primary topic when I go to my parents' house for dinner or things like that."

But he, too, has sensed that the American public is more willing to talk about, and consider, nontheistic philosophies than it did even three years ago.

"It's almost as if Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens added a level of credibility to the position of atheism," he said. "When my parents see a (story) on Fox News about atheists, they go, 'Oh, atheism.' It's open to discussion now. Before, it was just taboo because it was just their crazy, kooky son talking at the dinner table."

Las Vegan Carl Kaun agreed that the Hitchens and Dawkins books "give you an opening that you didn't have" before to discuss nontheism. "It gives some gravitas, as it were, to bring the topic up and say, 'Here's what people are saying about religions.' "

Kaun, 60, who's retired from a career in the aerospace industry, two years ago moved from the San Diego area to Las Vegas. He describes himself as "an apatheist," or someone who "doesn't really concern himself" with whether there is a god.

Kaun said nontheism "kind of crept up on me" over the past decade or so. Through online chats about atheism, "I just became more and more comfortable, I guess, with the idea that I didn't believe in any deity, and it actually seemed to be more and more foolish," he said.

Kaun has no qualms about talking about his beliefs. Yet, he said, some nontheists he knows "are concerned about other people knowing they are atheists because they still fear being discriminated against."

For example, Kaun knows of a teacher who's open about her beliefs with other nontheists but doesn't talk about them to others.

Lipman said that, based on missives to his group, blatant discrimination toward nontheists has become rare, although there are reports of "very subtle forms of pressure."

For example, he still hears from parents whose kids are "being pushed around on the schoolyard, harassed or ostracized because they don't say, 'under God' in the pledge (of allegiance)."

On the other hand, Lipman also receives e-mails from believing students who wish to learn about humanism for their religion studies classes and adults who simply wish to learn more about it.

"These are people who are not even questioning their own faith but want to learn about other views where, previously, they didn't even know these views even existed," he said.

Also new: Lipman has received, and accepted, invitations to speak to church groups during the past few years.

Most, he said, "just want to hear about what justifies my beliefs, and the questions are challenging, but not done with any kind of antagonism."

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Jon Hamel wrote on September 10, 2007 07:32 AM: In response to fra59e part 2 of 2:

Back to Naturalism and Theism:

Considering our current existence as being a minute slice of time, existing as matter in a fabric of space. From an epistemology point of view what can you know about the past up to that theoretical point in time where the very fabric of time space and matter . . . and later? life was created. And what can you know, if anything, about what existed prior to that point in time, or if we can even suppose their was such a thing as prior to that time? Can we say with certainty that existence preceded consciousness at that moment? How is it that we can assume that all that we can observe . . . simply happened? Or how do we know that it was not designed by some conscious intelligence? These questions, my friends, are fundamental unanswered questions that define why we believe what we do. I recommend that we step back a few steps, and understand how secure we can be in our personal belief systems. In my opinion, we may need to learn to be content with the knowledge that for the moment, some fundamental truths may be unknowable.


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Jon Hamel wrote on September 10, 2007 07:31 AM: In response to fra59e part 1 of 2:

Excellent observations that follow the Aristotelian view that drove the Renaissance! You might also find it interesting, that the Greeks and Romans both thought of the Jews and Christians as being atheists, because of their denial of the pantheon of Gods that existed at the time. Also recall, that it took time for the Jews to developed their absolute belief in a only a single God. I suppose, two hundred years ago, that most would consider a Deist . . . an atheist while today people would demand that the term only be used for those who strictly believed in Naturalism. The point being, our language is alive and does change for a variety of reasons as time moves on.

I myself having been fully immersed into the study of Objectivism, Naturalism etc. and I came to know that all belief systems are built on a fundamental set of ideas that cannot be proved, but must simply be accepted as fact. Humanism is built on the fundamental beliefs found in Naturalism, so fra59e if I were you, I would not be to quick in dismissing the foundations of what you profess to believe.


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GEORGE MOSS wrote on September 10, 2007 03:37 AM: According to the Gallup poll, 84 percent of Americans believe in God; 6 percent do not. No secular society has survived more than 3 generations in human history. Atheism is the opiate of the elites.


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lam wrote on September 10, 2007 02:08 AM: The Bible warns... stay away from the churches and do not listen to what men say on matters concerning God...men know only the vanities of their own heart. Those who preach about a "God and Jesus" are Fishers of Men and have snared many good and honest in their net(just as the Bible warned).

Jesus reveals that he is Lucifer in the book of "the Revelation of Jesus Christ". The prophecy of world deception is at hand (happening now)... Jesus is the Antichrist (fyi Antichrist means "against an annointed savior", which Lucifer was, it does not mean "against Jesus") The Antichrist is being worshiped throughout the world by millions... it's exactly as the Bible said it would be. The irony, of course, is that Christians keep warning the world to prepare for the Antichrist, yet it is Christianity that ushered it in and keeps the Antichrist alive and well in their hearts. Jesus is Lucifer... it's the ultimate paradox.

Obviously, I am not Christian. I also do not belong to any religion and pray to no God. But I most certainly believe there is something mysterious and supreme... I can fathom nothing else to explain how this could have happened.


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Jamie Huston wrote on September 09, 2007 09:38 PM: One thing that Dawkins, Hitchens, et al, get right is that religion (and atheism) need to present evidence. Either there is a God or there isn't, and we only need to align ourselves with a view that reasonably proves itself.

Where Dawkins and co. are wrong is that there is no evidence for God; that belief is only irrational, wishful thinking. Do you want a tangible artifact that demonstrates God's reality? The Book of Mormon is compelling, concrete evidence for God, from God.

Either the Book of Mormon is a translated ancient text (demonstrating that there is a God) or it was made up in the 19th century (proving that Mormons are wrong). With the stakes this high and the outcome so possibly definitive, I'd invite all with an interest in the subject to study it carefully.

The many solid facts that demonstrate the literal, historical veracity of the Book of Mormon may be found at www.MormonEvidence.com. Some of the most striking items include: its frequent use of non-bibilical Hebrew grammar and poetry that weren’t discovered until after Joseph Smith died; its dozens of legitimate Hebrew and Egyptian root words; its accurate descriptions of Arabian trade routes, burial sites, and oasis areas, which were all unknown to any Westerners in the 19th century; the sobering life stories of the eleven witnesses who saw the plates; and the deep profundity, complexity, and consistency of a 600-page text itself, which was dictated in about two months without any reviewing or editing. And this is still just the tip of the iceberg!

The Book of Mormon, and God, cannot be dismissed until this evidence is analyzed and accounted for. Do all the research and conclude, as many intelligent people have, that belief in God is logical.


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ralph wrote on September 09, 2007 09:07 PM: Good comments from all. Like a lot of people, I don't know the answers either. What we all need is TOLERANCE of other peoples beliefs, ideas, theories and lifestyles. If people would stop being "atolerant", then we would all be much happier.

If anything, this country was founded on the principle of "leave me alone". They came to escape a religion they didn't like, and to escape taxes they didn't want to pay.


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fra59e wrote on September 09, 2007 08:27 PM: The word "atheist" and the word "theist" each refer to a position concerning a God who has not yet been shown to have any possibility to exist therefore cannot be either affirmed or denied meaningfully.

I am not a believer in the existence of leprechauns and witches but do not consider it necessary or meaningful to call myself an "aleprechaunist" or an "awitchist."

There's no need to call me either an axlovenist or a nonaxlovenist, because there is no meaning in the word "axlovenism" (I just made it up).

Before I can consider choosing either theism or atheism you will need to convince me that a real choice exists. "Theism" and "atheism" are both nonsense terms until they are shown to have content of meaning - the potential to be referring to something real.

Why does "theist" mean something to you of "axlovenist" doesn't mean anything?

On the other hand, humanity is real, and there is meaning in "Humanism." It refers to humanity, something I know does exist.


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Think wrote on September 09, 2007 05:45 PM: Pertaining to the earlier comments, Pope Benedict was a member of the Hitler Youth (Hitler Jung) although there wasn't evidence he was a Nazi and membership was required. So technically the post wasn't correct but there is a connection.

Thinking you are correct absolutely is simply wrong. It is my biggest problem with fundamentalists of any ilk. People need to think and question--not merely accept.

I do disagree this country was founded on religion. It was founded on Judeo-Christian principles of liberty and tolerance. Were those principles practiced more. This need not be a religious idea.


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Jon Hamel wrote on September 09, 2007 03:44 PM: bruce wrote: "Who is protected by the government the atheist or the Christian?"

Bruce . . . Secular Humanism, Atheism, and Naturalism are the de-facto protected Religions of the United States. This truth is clear, if we think about it with a clear mind.


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bruce wrote on September 09, 2007 03:29 PM: The artical states that atheists are picked on. If that be true,who pickes on then and where?ONn the other hand if you pray or talk aout christianty you get renoved from school.Would you be removed from school if you spoke out against God? I don't think so.Who is protected by the goverment the atheist or the Christian?


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