Matthew M wrote on March 29, 2008 07:00 AM: Fortunately I escaped the public school system 2 years ago. However I remember it all too well. The public educational system is a tool for universal socialist indoctrination.
Here's a 'lesson' I had in elementary school. My class was divided into groups of various sizes and were given M&M candies. The smallest group got the most and the rest got less as they got larger. The teacher than explained how this represented how a minority of wealthy people controlled most of the money. She then asked us if it was 'fair'. The list of propaganda like that goes on and on, and it is having an impact on our youth. Young people these days are mostly socialist Democrats, at least where I live. We need to end this system because it is the most powerful tool socialist's have to spread their message.

Paul H wrote on January 29, 2008 07:18 PM: Vin, I couldn't agree more. But I feel the same way towards baptist-based "christian" schools as well, two of which I had a total of 6 years experience in. All exist to force one to conform, not to find their own way with good quality adult guidance, something seldom found these days.

Each succeeding generation brings something new to the table, and this creativity should never be squelched in favor of conformity to a world ruled by corporate masters drunk with power.

Maybe I'm too harsh, but I grew up in a world where any little thing got a kid beaten with a wooden paddle, innocent or not. I learned to lie, if only to save my sore hindparts from more corporal abuse, but I also learned that telling the truth fared no better. Mine was a "do as I say" world, though I hardly ever understood how to do the things I was being ordered (screamed at) to do at the time, because of a lack of proper instruction from good adults who actually knew what they were talking about.

Thanks for a great article, Vin !

Paul B wrote on December 17, 2007 05:28 PM: "The basic difference between those who believe that public education is a Soviet-style bureaucracy and the rest of us is that the former believe education to be a privilege and the latter see it to be a right."

Let's see what the former head of the American Federation of Teachers thinks about that:
"It's time to admit that public education operates like a planned economy, a bureaucratic system in which everybody's role is spelled out in advance and there are few incentives for innovation and productivity. It's no surprise that our school system doesn't improve: It more resembles the communist economy than our own market economy"
-- Albert Shanker

Education certainly is a right: everyone can educate himself or his children. But theft is not a right. Theft is what it takes to keep this government jobs program going. The most educated kids out there are the ones who have escaped this system.

Vin's only error is that the system cannot be gotten rid of (that implies a political solution worked out in the legislature, an obvious impossibility). The solution is for every parent to pull their kids out of a system that is harmful to them. But parents have to care, to take a step like that. How many do?

When enough parents leave the system, it will collapse of its own accord. No legislature necessary.

Log onto a homeschooling list. Ask the parents there, who have had experience both with government schools and with homeschooling, which is easier. Not more rewarding, not better for the kids, not more supportive of family life (although homeschooling has those advantages as well), just which is easier. I asked that question and was amazed to find almost unanimous agreement that homeschooling is actually easier than using the government schools.

When will parents do the right thing by their kids?

Jeremiah wrote on November 28, 2007 03:13 PM: Jon H.,

No, I do not that the government should have a de facto monopoly on education. As I said, parents are free to choose private or home schooling. However, state law requires that a fair and appropriate public education be available to all children, as I think it should be. It is necessary for a properly functioning society. Besides, until a Prop. 13-style initiative is passed in Nevada we will always be assessed taxes on our property. The Gov't won't stop that.

As you and I both agree on, vouchers would only cover a portion of the costs associated with private or home school. And if you take Vin's extreme approach of eliminating all public educational intitutions the costs of getting into what would be far fewer schools would skyrocket as demand naturally increased. I would wager that for the majority of working families vouchers do not cover enough of the costs to make them a realistic solution. So we have to just disagree on that, as the evidence we have now would suggest they are no more effective than funding public schools.

Is there room for private, public, and home schools? Yes, absolutely. Should we as a society continue to fund public schools? Yes, I believe we should for reasons stated above. Educated children are a benefit to all of society.

I have taught in both large and small districts so I also believe that the public school system is deeply flawed, as is the private one. Public schools (especially larger ones like CCSD) because of politics and private ones because of selectivity. That said, unless there is a clear-cut way that we could guarantee an education for all children, rich and poor, right now public schools are the most practical of the options we currently have before us.

Jon H. wrote on November 28, 2007 11:39 AM: Jeremiah,

Please excuse my use of a Polemic Rhetoric in reaction to your post . . . but saying that parents have a choice now with regards to their children’s education, makes about as much sense to me as saying parents have a choice to go out and quit their job. We both apparently agree, please refer to my earlier posts, that a stay home Mom or Dad is the most desirable environment to raise a child in, and that one parent may need to leave the work force in order to make that happen. That environment allows the possibility of Home Schooling. Our collective society has already determined that the education of our children is an entitlement, to be paid for by our tax dollars. Why penalize those who desire to Home School or penalize those who use Private Schools, by way of not providing their children’s a fair share to that Entitlement? Is it your position that only the Public School system has a right to this money? Certainly, School vouchers may be able to offset some of the costs associated taking on the responsibility of schooling your own kids, outside the Public School System. What you seem to be advocating is a de-facto Monopoly on Education for nearly all of the Citizens of this country by our Government.

Jeremiah wrote on November 28, 2007 08:56 AM: Jon H.,

Parents have the choice now. They can home-school their children or send them to a private school which can choose to accept their children or not and dump them any time they choose. The problem, I think, boils down to money rather than choice.

The money from a voucher is not the issue for the large majority of people, in my opinion. The real problem is the money from lost income. My wife and I both teach, so home-schooling would not be an issue from the technical aspect of designing lessons and tracking progress, coordinating with state standards (which for now we have to do), etc.

What would make it a virtual impossiblity is the loss of one of our incomes. If you're fortunate enough to be able to do that, great. Most families cannot absorb that kind of a loss, though. I do not think that that a voucher of $5,000 will help offset the costs and loss of income for working families. The editorials that trumpet the virtues of home-schooling never address that issue. Let's face it, that's a pretty big issue.

Now when it comes to vouchers, they're just a bad idea. They take a Fair and Appropriate Public Education (FAPE, state law) away from many children whose parents are not organized or concerned enough to do the leg work that's required to get their kids into a private school. It's not as simple as showing up at their door. I do not for one second believe that giving parents money will make them more responsible. When has money ever done that?

Now I don't know how many teachers you have ever met, but speaking for myself, I do not consider it my responsibility to teach values or morals. So I don't.

Bob_Robertson wrote on November 27, 2007 06:07 PM: What is lacking is the recognition that it costs almost nothing to teach reading, writing and math. My 4 year old is already learning multiplication, reads and writes well past 2nd grade level. It cost all of 4 work books from WalMart and one book on phonics reading.

If the State doesn't provide these services, they will be provided to those who cannot afford them by the same charities that provided them before: Churches, Rotary Clubs, the retired aircraft engineer down the street who runs classes on calculus, linear algebra and statics three days a week. Oh, and parents who don't have half their wages taken in taxes.

Jon H. wrote on November 27, 2007 05:08 PM: John F.

No apology needed, polemics are allowed and at times encouraged on this board. It does add some spice, and adds interest. That is one of the reasons I like Mark's postings.

I do not think that Vouchers need to entirely cover the cost of a child's education to make the idea worthwhile. If Vouchers only purpose was to provided parents a fighting chance to be responsible parents, and get by financially, while they took the responsibility to Home School their own children I say the idea is a success.

Considering the success (I mean lack of) of our current education system, and the fact that Home Schooled children in fact do very well, I see this as a win-win. If this is what it takes to get parents involved . . . so be it.

John F wrote on November 27, 2007 04:08 PM: Jon H.,

Also, I did not mean to ascribe values to you personally that you do not hold. If I gave you that impression, then, again, I apologize.

John F wrote on November 27, 2007 04:05 PM: Jon H.,

If I misrepresented the Libertarian position on public education I apologize.

I would agree with you on vouchers if a voucher covered the entire cost of a private school education and if there was a large enough supply of private schools to ensure that all children could attend school. I don't see how that can be accompished. Remember, under Vin's plan all public schools would be eliminated. If the provision of schools is just like the provision of any other market commodity then scarcity will always be an issue.

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