Green Dragon Regular wrote on July 07, 2009 12:22 PM: @li'l "p"-

So any and all money that results from someone else's ideas and planning is fair game to the workers who produce the product? Why then, would anyone bother with innovation if the reward is the same?

Perhaps, li'l "p", you don't quite have the equipment to compete at the creative, organizational level, and so, you sit back with venomous envy, feeling that you and all the other citizens of Utopia are horribly exploited. Do you think the person who works in the publishers' printing plants is entitled to a great share of the writers' ideas? They are not, because the skills and effort they possess and put forth are in abundant supply compared to the writers' and editors' skills and abilities, therefore they are worth less.

You're right, I AM in good company. I have risen from the ranks of the lower income, working class to where I am now, and the value of my thoughts and plans have enabled others to move up into the middle class by virtue of the jobs my thoughts and plans have created. Et tu, li'l "p"?

patrick wrote on July 06, 2009 02:49 PM: Green:

Its not a matter of being clever, its just recognizing things for what they are; all productivity talk is about "the general" being able to make more money off the backs of their employees.

As I said, "free marketers" like to claim that the ONLY way "real" wages can rise, is if productivity increases. When productivity increase, guess who takes what would otherwise be the "real" wage increase? That's right, "the general".

Its all about the greed Green, and the disingenuous talk from "free marketers" only fools the fools.

So, you're in good company.

Green Dragon Regular wrote on July 06, 2009 01:07 PM: @li'l "p"-

Your cleverness has, yet again, undermined your argument.

If two workers can do the work of three, then why pay three? Let's take it a step further- if the product they're producing isn't selling because people aren't spending as much, what is the producer's next move? The price of the product is reduced- thus necessitating a reduction in production costs.

The harsh reality is that the worker that produces a product imagined by someone else, designed by someone else, planned by someone else, and brought to the marketplace by someone else, is being paid based on each product, or part of a product they produce, while those who organized the systems to make it possible to produce are paid by the sum total and, often, the potential sum total of the production.

Is it unfair that the General is paid more than the Buck Private? To think otherwise is to believe that all are entitled to wealth. Which, by definition, is collectivism.

As the comedian says, "Here's your sign..."

Randy wrote on July 06, 2009 08:37 AM: Tweedledee,

You are an elitist who doesn't care about the poor. Your point is this: great, fire the poor and low skilled people they are worthless. Thanks for demonstrating the true colors behind the minimum wage.

tweedledee wrote on July 06, 2009 12:18 AM: In the upper midwest, northeast, and Canada we have an uninvited guest from China called the Emerald Ash Borer. So far this bug has killed or caused the removal of tens of MILLIONS of ash trees. The battle is still raging with the end not in sight. While the titans of industry are under the illusion they are saving money by importing from China, this bug which hitched a ride on some shipment has already cost us taxpayers billions. At least the CEO's got their bonuses.

tweedledee wrote on July 05, 2009 11:49 PM: The minimum wage does cost jobs and that's good. It forces management to do it's job. How much would that can of beer cost if you had a bunch of buck an hour saps replacing all that automated machinery? How much would that car cost if all the robots and machines were replaced with cheap humans. Instead of a crane how about dozens of guys with a rope and pully building those high rises. Thousands of guys with shovels building a road instead of two bulldozers with operators.

A lot of jobs have gone overseas but that has less to do about wages and more about management not doing it's job. For example, my company buys a lot of parts from China. Purchasing says it's cheaper. We say, "How much to ship it here". Not our problem they say. They call in the shipping manager, who has no control over incoming shipments, and tell him the freight bill is too high. Warehousing expense? Same thing. Can't tell you how many times we paid dearly to airfreight parts from China. Quality parts? Not really. Delivery is so erratic we have 6 months to 2 year supply of many parts filling up rented warehouses. Of course we have to hire people to work those warehouses and hire trucks to deliver to the plant. Ya, it's cheaper all right.

A few years ago a company was looking at a large crafts retailer as an investment. Their research showed that from a management standpoint this company was terrible. It was a great investment though because they bought their stuff so cheap from China that they made a good buck. Recently I heard they may be heading for bankruptcy. Bad management finally won out.

douglas wrote on July 05, 2009 09:54 PM: what'll be cool is when harry osama reid hammers through legislation to enfranchise his "pre-citizens". dumping tens of million of low skilled, hungry workers into the job market should pull the rug out from under low skilled, unemployed americans.

instead of a couple dozen of illegals scrambling to get into your truck at the home and garden centers, there'll be a hundred. and instead of the current $8/hour, that wage should plummet. and since those newly enfranchised, "legals" qualify for free health, food stamps, rent assistance, tuition, no doubt they'll live off the gubmit handouts, continue to work for cash, and continue to send the cash "back home".

thus harry osama's agenda will make american worker-taxpayers fund the freebies for the former illegals who'll suck up entry level jobs.

anyway, american kids would rather hang out at some mall, text messaging another drop out seated a few feet away. working out in the sun ain't no fun.

patrick wrote on July 05, 2009 05:49 PM: Pssssst...wanna know a secret?

"Productivity" is code for laying off employees and getting the left over workers to do the work that worker used to do, and then paying the remaining workers LESS than it cost to pay the layed-off worker so that the guy who just went out and bought a Bently, could now buy a Bentley convertible.

Gib wrote on July 05, 2009 12:17 PM: Why is it hard to believe people don't understand the negative effects of the "minimum wage"? Seems that our economy started going south last July, when the 1st minimum wage hike was enacted. Like the 800 lbs gorilla in the room, nobody is talking about that event. But really, what do you expect from a population that thinks Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are like insurance programs? The great unwashed have no clue to what "unfunded mandates" are. All they know is "I want mine! I paid for it!" Bernie Madoff is piker compared to FICA, found in every paycheck I've ever earned.

Wake up, people. The train is a'coming and it's a lot closer than you think.

Alan, why stop at $12/hr? If you're passing out money, how about $35/hr? For flipping hamburgers?

Alan wrote on July 05, 2009 10:50 AM: This editorial says that all CEOs today went straight to be a ceo right after college or submitting a resume. I do believe that all on this forum could not do my job with out proper training. Working from the bottom to the top. To gain experience at a job you must start on the bottom rung of the ladder and work your self up. Now if you shall pay someone pennies for making you money and complain about it you deserve what you get. Now pay someone a good wage and watch how that person will go out of his way to perform with excellence and always on time. You must be trained and perform jobs to get knowledge. Minimum wage should be $12.00 hr.

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