Titus wrote on July 09, 2009 01:37 PM: I'm going to ignore hss46's trollish race-baiting and just point out that the reason to deport illegal aliens is the same reason you'd “deport" someone who broke into your home: they're not supposed to be there. It really doesn't matter if they're only there to steal a little bit, a lot, or, in an amazing display of generosity, repair your busted appliances at no charge.

The fact is, we don't know specifically who they are, and there's no special reason why lawbreakers should be allowed to jump the queue by virtue of being *successful* lawbreakers, not while there are honest immigrants waiting their turn.

hss46 wrote on July 09, 2009 01:01 PM: Some facts:

There are 12 million illegals, not 30 million. Fewer than 40% are mexican, with Canada being the single largest supplier of illegals to this country. There is no documented evidence that a higher percentage of illegals are paid in cash than citizens and legal residents are paid in cash. More cash is remitted to foreign countries (especially Europe) by legal residents/citizens than by illegals.

If the big reason for wanting to deport illegals is that they don't pay taxes and suck our welfare dry, then make them legal, allow them to work at good jobs (not at Meat Packers in Iowa), collect taxes and they won't need welfare. But of course they still wouldn't be 'white' would they? Forget it, ship them back to Mexico.

Titus wrote on July 08, 2009 02:43 PM: Rob, you can call reality "fear-mongering" if you like, but reality is impervious to your epithets. The evasion of reality is a standard tactic of the Left -- I'm saddened that anyone who purports to be a libertarian would resort to that.

Should the ancient Greeks have had an open-door policy for the Persians? If they did, Western civilization would have perished in the cradle -- but hey, they'd have conformed to your perfect libertarian ideal.

Very well, I leave the value of allowing America's enemies a free, lethal first-strike to the reader -- it needs no further commentary on my part.

Bob_Robertson wrote on July 08, 2009 11:19 AM: Titus, I bow to your greater power of flag-waving fear-mongering.

"Would you like Al Queda to walk among us, free...so they could destroy us all in one coordinated explosion"?

Yes. In fact I do want individuals to walk where they will, free people, armed to their teeth if that's what they want.

That's because I believe that the initiation of force against others is wrong. It's wrong for Al Quieda, it's wrong for me, and it's wrong for you, too.

Titus wrote on July 07, 2009 10:55 AM: Rob asks, "...are you going to claim that the government owns all the land inside its borders?"

Actually, it does -- apart from all the land not owned by private citizens. Public land is just that -- it's owned by "the public" and the government, on behalf of the people, determines who is and who is not allowed to be on "public" land at any given time.

Further, the philosophy of "borders shouldn't exist" is naive and dangerous -- it would be granting de facto citizenship to the entire would. Would you like Al Queda to walk among us, free and unfettered with unknown amounts of ordnance so they could destroy us all in one coordinated explosion on some "blessed day?" If not, then we need borders, and those borders must mean something.

Even libertarians embrace some form of government, of by and for the people, right? Which people? I would hope that refers to the home-grown citizens, educated under the light of liberty to appreciate freedom and respect the rights of others, and those who've immigrated here legally with honest intentions to embrace those values.

Unchecked movements of persons unknown? In an ideal world where all of humanity has embraced American ideals, sure. In the real world, that's not an option.

Bob_Robertson wrote on July 07, 2009 10:11 AM: Titus, are you going to claim that the government owns all the land inside its borders?

Certainly property tax does lead one to believe that one's land isn't actually owned, but merely rented from government.

Go ahead and protect your land from trespassers. I certainly wouldn't stop you from doing that, which is why I'm not angry with the owners of border properties who are doing that themselves.

I object to being taxed to turn the US into a prison. It didn't work for the Iron Curtain, it won't work for the Mexican-American Wall either.

So "we" can either address the underlying cause, or the abuse will just continue like any other disease when merely treating symptoms.

Titus wrote on July 07, 2009 08:14 AM: Bob, your property line is, "an arbitrary barrier across some line on a map," as are the property lines of Americans who have their lands used as illegal entry points.

If we're going to invoke libertarian stereotypes, allow me to conjure the New Hampshire-esque shotgun-toting one who will pump buckshot into anyone with the temerity to trespass onto his land.

Bob_Robertson wrote on July 06, 2009 05:46 PM: So I guess I'm not a "Libertarian" any more, since I'm against both welfare and prohibitions on immigration.

In fact, I'm against red-blooded Americans using tax-funded schools and hospitals. Roads too. Ooops, that's just too "libertarian", I'll get dismissed as an "anarchist" now.

So I'm supposed to be for making immigration "illegal", just because of tax-funded freebees that such "illegal" immigrants utilize?

That's just circular reasoning.

Sounds a lot like sending American soldiers overseas to fight, kill and die in wars of aggression, and then claim that because I am opposed to wars of aggression I somehow don't "support the troops".

Let's have a thought experiment: Why not have Massachusetts prevent immigration from the poor workers of Alabama, since we all know how they just go to Mass for the welfare goodies.

But that would be a barrier to free travel and the division of labor that turned America into the largest free trade zone in the world, and fueled the engine of American industry to become the weathiest country in the world.

Now, remind me why putting an arbitrary barrier across some line on a map is supposed to work, "this time"?

To paraphrase someone Vin liked,

"Hey, Vin Suprynowicz, Tear Down This Wall!"

Interesting wrote on July 06, 2009 11:44 AM: http://www.reason.com/news/show/134579.html?bunfingers

Titus wrote on July 06, 2009 09:08 AM: Note well how all the pro-illegal-immigration folks, when presented with a sound argument against their pro-chaos viewpoint, cease to defend the practice of illegally entering the country and predictably turn to red herrings and ad hominem attacks.

They've clearly learned their "debate" skills second-hand from the tradition of Saul Alinsky, whether they know it or not. It shows their true color: red.

Personally, I think the illegal alien issue has the potential to be the next flash-point for the next American crisis war. No one here (I hope) wants that, which is why it must be brought under control immediately.

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